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Thread: The limitations & possibilites of the LOA & Abe teachings from my experience so far.

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    The biggest thing I want to point out here is that we're back to the same issue -- we're using the same word ("belief") but meaning very different things. As I've said before and you've ignored repeatedly, when we're talking about Belief (which I've capitalized to show that it's a particular term), I'm meaning PRACTICED VIBRATION. You're meaning something very different. If it's more helpful, every time I use the term "Belief" just replace it with the phrase "practiced vibration," and you'll see that we're basically talking about different things.
    Ok then, by belief I have meant traditional meaning of the word - the mental belief in something, i.e. I believe I will win or reverse ageing (which may turn out to be true or not), a belief can be very far from reality and turn out very different as you say because there is no knowing with it or it is not within practiced vibration etc. or it can come true regardless.

    If you mean to say that ageing and the not growing limbs is just practiced vibration, these I have been referring to as systems, whether they are genetic, chemical etc. So my current vibration includes the genetic echo of my forefathers and their traits etc. I'd say that this part of my practiced vibration is systemic i.e. occurring without my control or mental control. Things such as gravity I'd refer to as collective practiced vibration (although perhaps better to label them Laws), these things I've been referring to as rules.

    My 1st post and main argument hinges around the above. I have no issue accepting the creation/manifestation of something new through one's own vibration (thought + feeling state/vibration etc.) that might be outrageous to most but still be within the confines of the collective practiced vibration, I call this bending the rules. The above is what I get when Wellbeing said the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wellbeing
    You need to find the vibration of your desire if you wish to manifest it in this physical time-space reality.
    Note the words this time-space reality. The problem I have accepting is that it easy for anyone to step out of the bounds of that time-space reality by actually entirely breaking the rules and/or breaking manifestations or systems that have been created in the past and that continue their course in the present, gravity for example, I believe for 99.9% of people this is not possible (or better put it is impossible in their raw human condition), although note I did not say I believed it was impossible. Age is just one such thing it is the witnessing of a system manifest in the past in its current present state.

    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    That's silly. Do you really think that people defecting from the Soviet Union did not have fear of harm from the Soviet Union and it's agents? Are you trying to suggest that this fear wasn't an active, or even DOMINANT vibration? Of course not. Whatever particular mechanism by which the particular manifestation occurred was not all that significant from a vibrational point of view. There are countless avenues through which manifestations can occur, many of which are "unforeseen" in the way you're describing. That's not about the absence of "belief," that's simply about we humans not having the capacity to foresee what the path of least resistance will be for any given manifestation.
    If you had suggested someone like Trotsky I would have agreed. But many of these people were killed years after defecting and did not live in fear, they started new normal lives in the US and they were not sheltered, they had already exposed Soviet secrets so were in all respects exhausted already as potential threats to the USSR, these were revenge killings which were to be revealed internally in the USSR to show people within the intelligence services what happened to defectors (Alexander Litvinenko is the most recent example of this although in his case he still posed a threat to Putin), only later did these people and the CIA start to suspect they might be being targeted, many of the victims never knew it was coming.

    Anyway the point I was trying to make is not about them manifesting their own poisoning or not, but that the new poisons were designed in the Soviet Union to interact with a humans bodily systems and disable them (thus killing the person) and that these poisons would work on anybody from the entire human race whether they knew about them or not. So in effect what I'm saying is our collective practiced vibration as the human race which manifests itself as a collection of visible and invisible systems which expressed as an individual is called a human being is affected by another manifestation with a specific vibration in this case a poison which will terminate the former system, this regardless of the mental beliefs of that individual (note here I have not discussed whether or not they manifested their own poisoning, I am talking on chemical, biological and universal systems that interact with each other). I was making the irrefutable case for universal rules and systems existing that we are bound to, now whether or not they manifested their own poisoning or are able through manipulation of their own vibration to transcend a poisoning event is another discussion (although the latter could also be compared to regrowing a limb).

    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    Really? You know that? You were there to observe what Jesus or these Yogis experienced? You've met people that knew Jesus or these Yogis and observed what they were experiencing? Or you've simply read words written by someone that heard something from someone else at some point that confirms how you're already feeling? As opposed to these different words that are telling a different story about how you can have what you want?

    Here's the where I suggest you draw the line: Abraham gives a description of how LOA functions, and tells you that the best way to learn (because words don't teach) is through life experience. My point is that what Abraham has written is something you can try for yourself and discover whether or not things work as described. (I'll say from my own experience that they do, but those are just words to you.)
    marc please can you not go straight to ad hominems, I'm not here to argue with you and I do wish you'd tackle the substance of what I've written instead, you've repeated several times that I've ignored what you've said, has it occurred to you that I understand what you are saying but it is you who have ignored what I've written and superimposed what you want me to have said? Although you may not believe it and it may be gruelling I do appreciate you writing since you allow me perspective I may not have had myself, which is the entire reason I've raised the discussion here, but it doesn't help if I have to keep challenging ad hominems.

    You have questioned my knowing of an aspect of a subject (note I said knowing not believing), but marc do you realise that to most members of the general public everything both of us are discussing here would be equally passed off as boloney? We are in exactly the same boat in this regard, I am not questioning what you are saying you know to be true about what Abraham is saying.

    I didn't wish to discuss this here but I will answer, we know in great detail what the Yogis experienced and since the Nag Hammadi was discovered in 1945 (with texts carbon dating 120 years older than anything in the New Testament) we also know what the real message of Jesus to us was that the Orthodox and then Catholic churches did not want you to know (and spent a good deal of effort trying to destroy). Everything we are discussing here and what is presented within AAIG is nothing new, it has been written about & discussed for centuries and millenia quite comprehensibly and in great detail although often in secrecy, this does not discredit at all AAIG or the other abe materials for they are a conduit of the same spiritual thought though appropriate for the times and the culture receiving it. For example, if you substituted the phrase "practiced vibration" for "Karma" you'd be one step closer to the terminology used in an ancient Yogic text, for they are identical in meaning, as for the the description of the singular but multiple aspected spiritual guides described as Abraham, this is also very well described in Yoga texts over 100 years old. What is clear is we are dealing with spiritual systems, and with no irony discussing a spiritual science from whatever perspective you look at it, all the roads maybe different but they lead to the same place.

    So you asked me whether or not I knew that Jesus (I am not and never have been religious) and several other lesser known Yogis walked on water and more, before my profound experience over a decade ago I would have thought it irrelevant or even doubted it, however after the event (and I still did not know what a Yogi was then) I knew with absolute certainty that Jesus communed with the infinite and became a God incarnate on this planet and did those things. You cannot imagine the pleasure of discovering several years later what is a more than a 1900 year old translation of Coptic text describing back to you what you already know to be true through personal experience (and paradise-on-earth you will be pleased to know that what you have said in the course of your replies such as "you are Gods in physical form" is repeated several times in those texts).

    Later when I discovered Yogic texts that again corroborated my personal experience it was no surprise to me that Yogis did the same as well as other seemingly crazy things, the Yogic texts are very comprehensive as to method, obstacles and systems etc. It should be noted neither of these cultures had met each other at the time or exchanged ideas and many of the Yogic texts pre-date Jesus by several centuries - but they all are saying the same thing.

    This is btw the same reason why I have no problems corroborating generally what Abraham is saying in AAIG, I know most of it to be correct.

    You may be asking, so why if I appear to know the answers am I here discussing what is possible and what the limitations are?

    This has many parts to the answer, but as short as I can:

    1) Jesus failed to provide us with a system for self-realisation
    (the Catholic church is the proof of that) although he showed us the extent of what is possible, as for Yoga there is no structure in it, there are many branches of it with different aims and there are plenty of "pseudo-spiritual" types as well as frauds within Yoga communities, what is more in the West it is simply impossible to go to a cave and live on your own for extended periods in order to practice Yoga in total isolation (and this may not even be necessary). The last surviving old system intact is Buddhism again two branches but if you become a Buddhist their goal is not participation within the illusion but actually the leaving of it (arguably the same with Yoga), they are not about the business of life.

    AAIG and Abe materials are very well suited as a conduit for spiritual thought to people in the West, and also come without the trappings of ancient spiritual systems as well as spiritual revelation which has been perverted which is what we know as religion. It also is concerned with manipulating the illusion around us rather than escaping it, it is no secret most people on this world are suffering rather than being masters of it.

    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    To the extent that these stories help expand your perspective to question what's possible, great. To the extent that they limit your perspective, to what extent are they serving you?


    This is the most positive thing you've said to me so far marc.

    It reminds me that there is not one road, and many of the roads prescribed themselves become trappings themselves, Jesus was not a Yogi and plenty of Indians failed at what was proscribed in Hindu/Yogic spiritual thought (plenty of anecdotes of people who wasted their time meditating on their heads for years for example). I have also discovered that it is often possible for seemingly opposite things to be simultenously true in this world and have the same result, again which brings me back to AAIG as a something where you are not required to get too involved into a rigorous dedicated system, it is spirituality suitable for the West.

    So why am I asking the question of what is possible and what the limitations are?

    All the ancient systems I have described talk about the possibility of most bending the rules as I have described available to everyone, but when it comes to breaking the rules this is a very high degree of spiritual attainment and it is not considered easy. What in effect they are describing is the point where your mind at all times is at peace and your IB literally runs the show, it is the death of ego and the complete dominion over thought, how many of us are able to completely rest in silence without thought while still participating in the world around us? This is when events such as walking on water occur. What is more getting to these conscious states on the whole means those people end up leaving the system, when you type in a cheat code in a video game most people get bored and stop playing.

    This doesn't mean that like you alluded to marc those spiritual systems themselves are not a limitation, Jesus had no formal training did he? Which is exactly why I'm asking the question here to get all your perspectives on it, from an Aber perspective. Perhaps the details as described in Yoga books are not required for example, AAIG presents a lot of it in a much more simplistic manner (which may be more useful from a manifestation perspective since we do not need to understand the "how") and without rigorous meditation regimes etc.

    I wanted to ask the above questions without revealing my motives or getting into a discussion outside Abe materials, but since all I got were ad hominems with regards to that I have had no choice but to reveal the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    In my estimation it underlines the point that you're trying to interpret the words Abraham uses through the vibrational lens of your current feeling place (whether that's powerlessness or doubt), rather than actually paying attention to what Abraham actually means.
    No marc what I mean is what I've written above, it has nothing to do with my current feeling place.

    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    This is my point. You DON'T get this and you DON'T get the difference. You're going to great lengths try to argue that there isn't a difference when the difference is EVERYTHING. When you KNOW something, you're experiencing it NOW. That's what most people misunderstand when they use the term "KNOW," even when they're trying to find the vibrational place Abraham describes. You never KNOW that something will happen in the future. You can anticipate (either positively or negatively) that something will happen in the future, and that's often the source of negative or positive emotion. But that's simply not KNOWLEDGE. What virtually everyone misses when they talk about KNOWING and vibration is that KNOWING actually means embracing that the emotion IS the event. Also, the feeling place of KNOWING is always about your own wholeness, completeness and power. Either you're in that place NOW, or (usually) you aren't (as it's the ENDPOINT of a desire [and birthplace of a new desire], rather than a sustainable place).
    No I do get this and I do get the difference, but I did not want to discuss it since it is complex and a very long story and also why I agree with Eostre's first post from my personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by marc
    So the point I'm making is that maybe you presumed something would happen for some reason or another, but you definitely did not KNOW it would happen. After all, the proof is in the manifestational pudding. You thought it would happen and you were VERY WRONG. After all, that's what is at the heart of your lack of confidence, is it not?
    Again ad hominem!

    There is so much more I wanted to write and other people I wanted to respond to, but I have literally spent hours and I must must go to sleep. Thank you all for your responses!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Ok then, by belief I have meant traditional meaning of the word - the mental belief in something, i.e. I believe I will win or reverse ageing (which may turn out to be true or not), a belief can be very far from reality and turn out very different as you say because there is no knowing with it or it is not within practiced vibration etc. or it can come true regardless.
    Except that there IS knowing of what's coming true, because what you think, how you feel and what manifests is always a match. So you may say, "I believe I will win," but feel worried and despite your words your experience have to

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    If you mean to say that ageing and the not growing limbs is just practiced vibration, these I have been referring to as systems, whether they are genetic, chemical etc. So my current vibration includes the genetic echo of my forefathers and their traits etc. I'd say that this part of my practiced vibration is systemic i.e. occurring without my control or mental control.
    Not without your control, simply without your awareness. If you were to walk into a restaurant and order a turkey sandwich without looking at the menu because the people who were there ahead of you ordered turkey sandwiches, it doesn't mean that what you're getting is out of your control. It's just that you're not really aware of your options.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Things such as gravity I'd refer to as collective practiced vibration (although perhaps better to label them Laws), these things I've been referring to as rules.
    I'd describe them less as rules and more as what Abraham describes as, "creating by default." It's about observing what's going on around you without regard to what you want and simply creating more of it. See my "turkey sandwich" metaphor above.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    My 1st post and main argument hinges around the above. I have no issue accepting the creation/manifestation of something new through one's own vibration (thought + feeling state/vibration etc.) that might be outrageous to most but still be within the confines of the collective practiced vibration, I call this bending the rules. The above is what I get when Wellbeing said the following:



    Note the words this time-space reality. The problem I have accepting is that it easy for anyone to step out of the bounds of that time-space reality by actually entirely breaking the rules and/or breaking manifestations or systems that have been created in the past and that continue their course in the present, gravity for example, I believe for 99.9% of people this is not possible (or better put it is impossible in their raw human condition), although note I did not say I believed it was impossible.
    You're right, it's very difficult to step outside the bounds of this time-space reality because YOU INTENDED TO LIVE IN THIS TIME-SPACE REALITY. Often times people will ask Abraham about things about astral projection, other dimensions, and the like and they'll respond, "If you knew how much trouble you went into to put yourself into this physical experience, you wouldn't be trying so hard to get out.

    Speaking of systems, let's take gravity, for example, since you brought it up. Now you might drop something precious and break it, and in that narrow sense you might wish gravity didn't work the way that it did because you prefer that your precious thing didn't break. Or perhaps you're feeling bound and in your mind you think it would feel much more free if you weren't stuck to the earth by gravity. So from those limited perspectives you might think you'd like to "break the system" of gravity, but from a much broader perspective, that's not something you really want to do. You want the Earth to remain in its orbit, just like you want the moon to stay in its orbit, and you want things on the Earth not to get flung off into space, and it's usually a very good thing that things you put down don't float off elsewhere. In other words, the system really serves you and it's good the way it is. You don't actually want it to turn it off simply because something fell and broke. There are lots of things like gravity that function really well that technically you have the ability to bend that you'd have to do a LOT of work to try to bend. Doesn't mean they're unbendable or unbreakable, but in 999 times out 1000, there are much easier ways to get at what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Age is just one such thing it is the witnessing of a system manifest in the past in its current present state.
    "Turkey sandwiches are things that other people ordered when I walked in the restaurant."

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    If you had suggested someone like Trotsky I would have agreed. But many of these people were killed years after defecting and did not live in fear, they started new normal lives in the US and they were not sheltered, they had already exposed Soviet secrets so were in all respects exhausted already as potential threats to the USSR, these were revenge killings which were to be revealed internally in the USSR to show people within the intelligence services what happened to defectors (Alexander Litvinenko is the most recent example of this although in his case he still posed a threat to Putin), only later did these people and the CIA start to suspect they might be being targeted, many of the victims never knew it was coming.
    You have absolutely no idea what these people were vibrating and whether they had fear active in their vibrations or not. You're simply making them into straw men that fit into your narrative. Nevertheless, as I mentioned before, vibrationally speaking, it's quite common to not know the mechanism through which something is going to happen, but because you know the way you feel, you always have in the moment emotional guidance letting you know that something is active in your vibration. So the notion that "the victims never knew it was coming," isn't accurate in that sense. Maybe they ignored their negative emotion, maybe they didn't understand what their negative emotion meant, but that doesn't mean that these things came from out of the blue. Rather, they were the logical consequence of their thoughts. Things naturally get bigger, and bigger and bigger. The fact that they "started new normal lives" doesn't really matter because the change in conditions doesn't change their vibration. To the contrary, their conditions had to ultimately conform to their vibrations, which is what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Anyway the point I was trying to make is not about them manifesting their own poisoning or not, but that the new poisons were designed in the Soviet Union to interact with a humans bodily systems and disable them (thus killing the person) and that these poisons would work on anybody from the entire human race whether they knew about them or not.
    I still don't see how that's relevant. It doesn't matter that the path of least resistance for the manifestation was a new poison as opposed an ice pick to the head.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    So in effect what I'm saying is our collective practiced vibration as the human race which manifests itself as a collection of visible and invisible systems which expressed as an individual is called a human being is affected by another manifestation with a specific vibration in this case a poison which will terminate the former system, this regardless of the mental beliefs of that individual (note here I have not discussed whether or not they manifested their own poisoning, I am talking on chemical, biological and universal systems that interact with each other). I was making the irrefutable case for universal rules and systems existing that we are bound to, now whether or not they manifested their own poisoning or are able through manipulation of their own vibration to transcend a poisoning event is another discussion (although the latter could also be compared to regrowing a limb).
    Perhaps that's the point you're making and yet I fail to see the relevance of it. Yes, human bodies can die through a variety of different ways and if you're going to ignore that each person is the creator of their own experience, you might come to the conclusion that human bodies are particularly vulnerable. In doing so, however, you're missing the more important, bigger picture of how things actually work.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    marc please can you not go straight to ad hominems, I'm not here to argue with you and I do wish you'd tackle the substance of what I've written instead, you've repeated several times that I've ignored what you've said, has it occurred to you that I understand what you are saying but it is you who have ignored what I've written and superimposed what you want me to have said? Although you may not believe it and it may be gruelling I do appreciate you writing since you allow me perspective I may not have had myself, which is the entire reason I've raised the discussion here, but it doesn't help if I have to keep challenging ad hominems.
    You might want to look up the definition of "ad hominem," as at no point have I tried to criticize you as a person rather than address what we're discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    You have questioned my knowing of an aspect of a subject (note I said knowing not believing), but marc do you realise that to most members of the general public everything both of us are discussing here would be equally passed off as boloney? We are in exactly the same boat in this regard, I am not questioning what you are saying you know to be true about what Abraham is saying.
    I made that point not to attack you or your character, but to make a very real, very important point on the substance of what we're talking about. You say you KNOW something that you simply do not have the ability to know in a direct way and I was pointing that out. You weren't there to observe Jesus or those Yogis, and at least when we're talking about Jesus, the people who wrote the stories about him were not there to observe him either. The point of that is not a criticism of you, but rather that the only thing you KNOW is the stories about those individuals that may or may not have any resemblance to what actually happened. In contrast, when I tell you that I KNOW that things work the way Abraham describes, it's because I've applied what they've suggested and had my own personal experience that conformed exactly to what Abraham has described and what we're trying to tell you. Now is it the case that the general public might consider what Abraham teaches to be baloney? ABSOLUTELY. My point was that with the core of what Abraham describes is something you can test and find out for yourself whether it's accurate or not. In contrast, you've no ability to test and observe whether Yogi A was able to walk on water and how he did that, or whether Jesus said any particular thing or how events unfolded. I'm not going to get into the details of particular texts or how what Abraham teaches relates to other spiritual texts because, A) I'm not trying to discredit or validate other teachers or traditions and, B) I don't really have any interest in any of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    This is the most positive thing you've said to me so far marc.

    It reminds me that there is not one road, and many of the roads prescribed themselves become trappings themselves, Jesus was not a Yogi and plenty of Indians failed at what was proscribed in Hindu/Yogic spiritual thought (plenty of anecdotes of people who wasted their time meditating on their heads for years for example). I have also discovered that it is often possible for seemingly opposite things to be simultenously true in this world and have the same result, again which brings me back to AAIG as a something where you are not required to get too involved into a rigorous dedicated system, it is spirituality suitable for the West.
    Again, our intention here isn't to say that what Abraham teaches is the only "true" or "helpful" source of information, or that anyone needs to follow what Abraham says rather than other traditions. Nevertheless, this is the AbeForum. We're here to discuss Abe's teachings and to the extent that any particular person is asking about what Abraham teaches and misunderstanding how things work, we're always going to recommend AAIIG as it's the most complete description of both theory and practical application.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    So why am I asking the question of what is possible and what the limitations are?

    All the ancient systems I have described talk about the possibility of most bending the rules as I have described available to everyone, but when it comes to breaking the rules this is a very high degree of spiritual attainment and it is not considered easy. What in effect they are describing is the point where your mind at all times is at peace and your IB literally runs the show, it is the death of ego and the complete dominion over thought, how many of us are able to completely rest in silence without thought while still participating in the world around us?
    I disagree with virtually all of what you wrote. Your IB doesn't run the show, you do. If your IB did run the show, you'd be having a very different experience. I also disagree with this notion that you've got to reach some sort of perfected mental state where "your mind at all times is at peace" and how you're supposed to be "completely rest in silence without thought." That's not anything Abraham is recommending. It's something you're making up.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    This doesn't mean that like you alluded to marc those spiritual systems themselves are not a limitation, Jesus had no formal training did he? Which is exactly why I'm asking the question here to get all your perspectives on it, from an Aber perspective. Perhaps the details as described in Yoga books are not required for example, AAIG presents a lot of it in a much more simplistic manner (which may be more useful from a manifestation perspective since we do not need to understand the "how") and without rigorous meditation regimes etc.
    I don't have any basis on which to answer how Jesus or Yogis did anything specific, nor do I have any interest in those subjects. I can tell you that Abraham explains that if this time-space reality has the wherewithal to cause you to desire something, it has the ability to yield a real, meaningful manifestation of that desire, without exception. Everyone who's responded to the basis of your question has responded in similar ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    I wanted to ask the above questions without revealing my motives or getting into a discussion outside Abe materials, but since all I got were ad hominems with regards to that I have had no choice but to reveal the above.
    You're the one who brought up stories of what Jesus and Yogis did and how they did it and how difficult it was and the price they had to pay. All I've done is point out that they're simply stories (whether "true" or not) that you're using to impose limitations on your experience. They're not our limitations, they're not Abraham's limitations and I do not agree that they're any sort of objective limitations to what's possible. None of that is an "ad hominem" attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    No marc what I mean is what I've written above, it has nothing to do with my current feeling place.
    Everything you write is about your current feeling place. It's your way of justifying and defending that feeling place. You cannot separate how you're interpreting things from your current vibrational place. That's how all beliefs and manifestations work.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    No I do get this and I do get the difference, but I did not want to discuss it since it is complex and a very long story and also why I agree with Eostre's first post from my personal experience.
    If you're agreeing with Eostre's post, then you can't possibly get the difference in the way I mean. The story isn't so long and complex that it contradicts the truth of the manifestation you've already described. You can't possibly KNOW something in the vibrational sense and have the opposite occur. The manifestation is always the accurate indicator of vibration, so you were in a very different vibrational place than you thought you were. The experience you described is all about you NOT being in the vibrational place of knowing, which is exactly you're describing the outcome to be "devastating to confidence." Of course, that's what you're agreeing with Eostre's post -- that you lack confidence in your ability to align with what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Again ad hominem!
    Not ad hominem in the slightest. In fact, it's just laying out exactly what I mean when I say you don't get the difference I'm talking about. If you really KNEW in a vibrational sense the thing you said you knew, it would not have been possible for you to have a manifestation that contradicted your knowing. It's simply not possible. You thought it might happen, but the manifestation is the proof that you weren't in the vibrational place of KNOWING that I'm describing. Again, it's because you're using the term "knew" in a colloquial way and I'm talking about a very specific and particular vibrational place that, frankly, you haven't experienced yet. That's exactly why I said that if you're agreeing with Eostre's post, you can't possibly get the distinction in the way I mean. If you had, you'd have the life experience that confirms to you that your thought and alignment were the one and only factor in experiencing the manifestation you desired. There's nothing "ad hominem" in any of that.

  3. #53
    I apologise I had actually replied to this thread some 3 weeks ago, but the web form ate up my hours of work after I tried to post and I can only convey my frustration and then huge amount of resistance I had to overcome to rewrite this which took me all this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    You might want to look up the definition of "ad hominem," as at no point have I tried to criticize you as a person rather than address what we're discussing.
    Marc I am well aware of what ad hominem is (and the various forms of it) and I could very well say the same thing to you, while you have not attacked my person or character, you have instead of attacking purely the substance of my argument attacked another motive or attribute of mine for making the argument - this is ad hominem and you have also used instances of circumstantial ad hominem - I will point them out when they come up. The point is no discussion is possible with such argumentation and since no one has posted after our toing and froing, if the aim of such argumentation is to shut down any discussion beyond one's scope my point is proved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    Really? You know that? You were there to observe what Jesus or these Yogis experienced?
    This is circumstantial ad hominem Marc, and I might well use the same argument against you with the Abraham materials and LOA which cannot be proved only known / experienced.

    Since you have questioned me I will explain why I have brought these examples up and how they relate to the debate and question at hand, I will try to condense it as much as possible for easier consumption. Readers if you want to skip to my point please go to the -------- line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    "If you knew how much trouble you went into to put yourself into this physical experience, you wouldn't be trying so hard to get out.
    This was actually more or less said by Buddha many thousands of years ago (at least the first part) which brings me to the following, the Abraham materials are not the first spiritual revelations to be imparted on mankind, the same almost identical spiritual knowledge has been imparted through various conduits for millennia, ancient Yogic texts, Gnostic Christian and Buddhist texts very well describe the human experience and the universe around us? Don't believe me, here's a very basic example from the New Testament alone:

    Matthew 25:29 - For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

    Not to be taken literally and if you wanted to describe the LOA to a highly religious Jewish people 2000 years ago, I don't think you could put it better in a couple of sentences.

    So why is this relevant and important at all? Well since Abraham very well describes several systems and realities that we live in etc. so do these ancient texts but they go even further and into a lots of detail, more on this later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    You say you KNOW something that you simply do not have the ability to know in a direct way and I was pointing that out. You weren't there to observe Jesus or those Yogis, and at least when we're talking about Jesus, the people who wrote the stories about him were not there to observe him either. The point of that is not a criticism of you, but rather that the only thing you KNOW is the stories about those individuals that may or may not have any resemblance to what actually happened. In contrast, when I tell you that I KNOW that things work the way Abraham describes, it's because I've applied what they've suggested and had my own personal experience that conformed exactly to what Abraham has described and what we're trying to tell you.
    Again this is circumstantial ad hominem, you can't prove what you know anymore than I can tell you that what I'm saying is true, so please lets stick to the content. After a profound personal experience and discovering texts describing my experience more or less exactly and more I came to realise with absolute certainty that two entirely separate cultures that never met could not have had the same spiritual coincidences occurring, i.e. people realising their divinity and walking on water etc.. (again described in great detail in Sutras etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    Perhaps that's the point you're making and yet I fail to see the relevance of it. Yes, human bodies can die through a variety of different ways and if you're going to ignore that each person is the creator of their own experience, you might come to the conclusion that human bodies are particularly vulnerable. In doing so, however, you're missing the more important, bigger picture of how things actually work.
    The point is its systemic and we find ourselves in that system whether we like it or not, a system which has rules and is described in great detail by centuries of Yogis, Buddhists and deep meditators, and more recently in a more accessible way to modern culture via Abraham and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    You're right, it's very difficult to step outside the bounds of this time-space reality because YOU INTENDED TO LIVE IN THIS TIME-SPACE REALITY.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    You don't actually want it to turn it off simply because something fell and broke. There are lots of things like gravity that function really well that technically you have the ability to bend that you'd have to do a LOT of work to try to bend. Doesn't mean they're unbendable or unbreakable, but in 999 times out 1000, there are much easier ways to get at what you want.
    You could not turn off gravity but you could personally defy the rules of gravity, you can bend but the rules cannot change unless the entirety of consciousness changes. We are discussing the very possibilities of breaking the rules without excuses or substitution, so regrowing limbs, youthing by 60 years etc. Ancient texts tell us just how much is possible from the Abraham level of understanding (which is playing the game at an advanced level and bending rules) but they also tell us about breaking the rules entirely and what price there is and the difficulty of doing so, since like putting God mode into a video game you soon lose interest in the entire game.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    So I repeat I do have difficulty in believing that the rules can be broken so nonchalantly, I think we all by now know the mind is not powerful enough to do it directly. While i have no issue accepting that the bending of rules within our reality are a given (as I've explained before) I do have issue with for example people regrowing limbs etc. I am not skeptical about its possibility but its difficulty.

    I want to tell beautiful young girls who are acid attack victims and have had their faces permanently disfigured that they can grow their faces back, I want to tell accident victims that they can walk again etc. Science to this day can't do this and I've yet to hear about someone actually pulling such a break of rules off by personal spiritual means. More I'd like to show them how it is possible, I am unable to do this and no one so far can show me how - the Abe materials make some pretty large claims, Ancient texts say the same but do not make the claim so lightly, conquering one's desires is one of the first obstacles to breaking rules.

    Substitution is not the answer either, so you'll die and have it in the next life or other life for example is just not an acceptable answer.

    P.S. Just for the record I do not believe in entirely vibrational predestination either, chance is a factor involved in everyone's life and this still doesn't make the LOA any less true.

    Oh and my best wishes to all of you for the New Year!

  4. #54
    Super Moderator WellBeing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    I apologise I had actually replied to this thread some 3 weeks ago, but the web form ate up my hours of work after I tried to post and I can only convey my frustration and then huge amount of resistance I had to overcome to rewrite this which took me all this time.
    If you'd like to know more about why this may happen and some things you can do about it, you can read about it here:

  5. #55
    Thank you WellBeing some good suggestions, I usually do word process it. I must say I am very happy it didn't get posted, my rewrite is much better and shorter, perhaps the Universe stepped in!

  6. #56
    Super Kitty Marc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    This is circumstantial ad hominem Marc, and I might well use the same argument against you with the Abraham materials and LOA which cannot be proved only known / experienced.
    That's my entire point. You absolutely CAN test whether LOA operates in the way Abraham describes that it does, where the types of details you're attributing to the lives of particular spiritual masters aren't testable. That's not any sort of attack. You're more than welcome to continue to interpret what I'm saying as an attack, but it seems nonsensical to me. I'm trying to nudge you in the direction of your own empowerment and you're resolutely justifying and defending your imposition of limitations.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    The point is no discussion is possible with such argumentation and since no one has posted after our toing and froing, if the aim of such argumentation is to shut down any discussion beyond one's scope my point is proved.

    An alternative explanation is that no one is really all that interested in helping you justify your limitations. We're much more about moving in the direction of expanding what we believe is possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    So why is this relevant and important at all?
    I'm not suggesting that much of what Abraham teaches is available from other spiritual teachers and traditions. They've made that very clear. I'm simply not interested in getting into the details of those different teachers and traditions. I simply cannot convey to you the depths to which I simply do not care what they've done or how they went about doing it. I've not an iota of interest in how Yogi A went about achieving a state where they were able to sustain themselves on sunlight alone rather than food and water, or how Spiritual Master B fasted for two months and struck their back with reeds before they discovered that they could walk through snow without leaving any footprints. It just doesn't matter to me whether the Maya carved pictograms that translate to mean, "What you think, how you feel and what manifests is always a perfect match" and that those pictograms are nearly identical to Egyptian hieroglyphs discovered in a recent archeological dig at their most important temple. Nor would I find it of note that the entire text of "Ask and It Is Given" was lifted word for word from ancient Zoroastrian texts. On the contrary, I'm a pragmatist. Can I apply this to my life in practical way? The rest just isn't of consequence to me. That's not an attack, simply my own approach to things.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    Again this is circumstantial ad hominem, you can't prove what you know anymore than I can tell you that what I'm saying is true,
    Sure I can. Abraham explains that LOA works in a particular way. I've applied what they teach and verified on multiple occasions that things operate exactly as they describe. That's the core of what I'm getting at -- the practicality of what Abraham describes. You can try it out and find out for yourself, which is what appeals to me.

    Now it's certainly the case that I can't "prove" that to you. My point is that if there's part of the texts that you're able to apply in a practical way and determine for yourself if things operate in the way they're described, GREAT. I'm suggesting that details of what other people did and how they went about things are less helpful. Just because ingested glass and burned themselves with red hot pokers in order to achieve a particular state of being or manifest a particular experience doesn't imply that this is the only way to go about things. Now obviously I'm making up the example, but it goes to show my point. Even if you accept the description as accurate (and there's no way to verify those details), it's simply not all that helpful because their experience is unique to what was going on with them at the time and isn't necessarily applicable to you at this point. You can MAKE it applicable, but whatever price you're suggesting needs to be paid is actually self-imposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    After a profound personal experience and discovering texts describing my experience more or less exactly and more I came to realise with absolute certainty that two entirely separate cultures that never met could not have had the same spiritual coincidences occurring, i.e. people realising their divinity and walking on water etc.. (again described in great detail in Sutras etc.)
    That's just peachy. Not anything I have any interest in, but peachy nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    You could not turn off gravity but you could personally defy the rules of gravity, you can bend but the rules cannot change unless the entirety of consciousness changes. We are discussing the very possibilities of breaking the rules without excuses or substitution, so regrowing limbs, youthing by 60 years etc. Ancient texts tell us just how much is possible from the Abraham level of understanding (which is playing the game at an advanced level and bending rules) but they also tell us about breaking the rules entirely and what price there is and the difficulty of doing so, since like putting God mode into a video game you soon lose interest in the entire game.
    You're more than welcome to decide that the texts you're describing are more advanced and evolved than what Abraham teaches and use those texts to justify imposing limitations. All of that is fine. In fact, it's really just LOA in action -- you're finding evidence to justify the way you're feeling, which is how reality works. If you felt differently, you'd attract a different set of evidence to support the way you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    So I repeat I do have difficulty in believing that the rules can be broken so nonchalantly, I think we all by now know the mind is not powerful enough to do it directly. While i have no issue accepting that the bending of rules within our reality are a given (as I've explained before) I do have issue with for example people regrowing limbs etc. I am not skeptical about its possibility but its difficulty.
    Yes, you've made it very clear that you doubt the practicality of what Abraham is teaching. You've restated that many, many times over the course of this thread. Nonetheless, for those of us who are familiar with Abraham's teachings and had our own experiences with them, what you're saying is sort of like you repeatedly telling us that your car is out of gas. We're not denying the immediate effects of that, we just understand that it's a condition that's not as consequential as you're making it out to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    I want to tell beautiful young girls who are acid attack victims and have had their faces permanently disfigured that they can grow their faces back, I want to tell accident victims that they can walk again etc. Science to this day can't do this and I've yet to hear about someone actually pulling such a break of rules off by personal spiritual means.
    And that's not necessarily because it hasn't happened (or perhaps easier to accept if we say that it COULDN'T happen), but rather that it's an indicator verifying how you feel/what you believe. There's nothing wrong with that. It's consistent with what you've written in your previous threads. It's also consistent with where mass consciousness is. I've also never seen it happen either, though it's never been a desire I've wanted to align with either. That said, when you've had the experience of lining up with what you want and watching LOA at work, then you can at least use that experience to reason that it's possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post
    More I'd like to show them how it is possible, I am unable to do this and no one so far can show me how - the Abe materials make some pretty large claims, Ancient texts say the same but do not make the claim so lightly, conquering one's desires is one of the first obstacles to breaking rules.
    Well, you can't teach what you can't know. Similarly, you're never going to find evidence to disprove how you feel because LOA is always going to give you evidence that affirms and supports your beliefs. If you decide to apply what Abraham teaches (or whatever other teachers you decide to follow) and discover that those claims are accurate, then you'll be able to start to demonstrate some of that. Of course, we're really getting back to my main point that at least with Abraham's teachings (and perhaps with others as well) you have the ability to apply what they're teaching and find out for yourself.

  7. #57
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I'm a pragmatist. Can I apply this to my life in practical way? The rest just isn't of consequence to me.
    ...that´s my own attempt to anything that resonates with me, as well.
    -When it resonates, it resonates.
    When it feels good, it feels good.
    When it works for me- it works for me.

    And that is ALL that I need to know, and man, is this Abe-stuff feeling good and working, *for me*.

    If it doesn´t, to you, all you´ve gotta do is find something that works and feels good TO YOU. The rest is brain-f* (ups... )
    Last edited by paradise-on-earth; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:10 AM.

  8. #58
    Jewel M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailorboat View Post

    By breaking I would categorize this as the deliberate breaking of the bounds of the system. So for example, walking on water - which is the breaking of the rules of gravity, regrowing limbs - which is the breaking of the rules of our genetic programming (please don't mention Lizards or Crabs they have millenia of genetic programming allowing them to do this), or an 80 year old youthing to / becoming physically indistinguishable from his 20 year old self again.

    My contention is that AAIG makes rather lightly the claim that the rules can be broken by the average person i.e. regrowing limbs, when there are people who dedicate their entire lives to Yoga & meditation practice without such success. It is really the rare few that can expand & elevate their consciousnesses to the levels of Jesus or Buddha or other less known Yogis and literally walk on water.

    For example there is a lot of emphasis made on feeling the way you want to be in the teachings as if this would bring about the desired change you want, but I know a 60 year old who claims he doesn't feel a day older than 25, and he acts it too, but he certainly doesn't look 25, he looks his age.

    Furthermore I have several occurences in life where I believed something to be absolutely true and I knew they'd occur, only to have them not occur - the effect being devastating on my confidence. My point being that the human or lower mind is not nearly as powerful as most would like to think the human mind is in fact the limitation, which is where meditation, silencing the mind and reaching higher states of consciousness come in - something that might take a lifetime to achieve.

    Would love to hear your thoughts on the above. Thanks
    When you no longer think you are just a physical being, you can break the rules....not just bend them.
    But when you no longer think you are just a physical being, you might just see that who you truly are is actually everywhere...therefore what can limit you? You would adore your body just as it is, because you can reach beyond it.

    With that said, my mom changed my appearance in the womb. She got fixated on certain features...and I have them! She was not trying to change or mold my appearance....she fell in love with a particular appearance. She, that knows nothing about metaphysics was my first metaphysical teacher.

    What she loved was the only thing that filled her vision.

    Is what you love the only thing that fills your vision? Or are you going back and forth....focusing on the undesired as well as the desired? Note that you do not try to create the wanted appearance....you fill your vision with it. It's soft and easy.

  9. #59
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel M. View Post
    When you no longer think you are just a physical being, you can break the rules....not just bend them.

    ...
    Is what you love the only thing that fills your vision?
    Wonderful.

  10. #60
    Jewel M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradise-on-earth View Post
    Wonderful.
    Ah yes, love is the key.



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