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  1. #1

    cruelty towards animals

    I wonder if Abraham have been asked about cruelty towards animals. I remember what they said about death, that for animals it's not a big deal, but what about living in terrible conditions, having to lactate all their lives, having products experimented on them?

    I am becoming more sensitive on the subject and pondering if I want to be vegan. Or better, I actually don't wish to be vegan at all, for various reasons, but I also feel like not being part of this cruelty thing (without pushing against it of course), and so I find myself being a bit split on this. I could do with some re-framing on this matter. I'd also like to hear your personal opinions, it may help me get clarity on this.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Super Moderator WellBeing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I wonder if Abraham have been asked about cruelty towards animals. I remember what they said about death, that for animals it's not a big deal, but what about living in terrible conditions, having to lactate all their lives, having products experimented on them?
    So, are you saying that you create your own reality but animals don't? How does that idea feel to you? Because your emotion tells you what your IB is thinking about this topic. And your IB is looking at what YOU have put in your Vortex on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I am becoming more sensitive on the subject and pondering if I want to be vegan. Or better, I actually don't wish to be vegan at all, for various reasons, but I also feel like not being part of this cruelty thing (without pushing against it of course), and so I find myself being a bit split on this.
    Let's put that into Abraham terminology for a second:
    "So, I understand that I'm having guidance in the form of my negative emotion on this topic and, rather than doing my vibrational "work" to find out what my IB is thinking about this subject, I'm contemplating taking the action journey and following a path that I acknowledge is a path of greater resistance.... [And although the passage I quoted doesn't include this bit, let's add it in:]...So, I want you guys to do my 'work' for me."

    Now, you can use this Forum as a FB-substitute. OR you could start to reach for thoughts about this topic which feel better to you and tune into the opinion of your IB which is YOUR personal opinion which really matters to you.


    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I wonder if Abraham have been asked about cruelty towards animals. I remember what they said about death, that for animals it's not a big deal, but what about living in terrible conditions, having to lactate all their lives, having products experimented on them?

    I am becoming more sensitive on the subject and pondering if I want to be vegan. Or better, I actually don't wish to be vegan at all, for various reasons, but I also feel like not being part of this cruelty thing (without pushing against it of course), and so I find myself being a bit split on this. I could do with some re-framing on this matter. I'd also like to hear your personal opinions, it may help me get clarity on this.

    Thoughts?

  3. #3
    Super Moderator WellBeing's Avatar
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    So rather than post my "personal opinion,” let me focus instead on what Abraham teach....
    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I wonder if Abraham have been asked about cruelty towards animals. I remember what they said about death, that for animals it's not a big deal,...
    So, why isn't it a big deal? Because animals as a whole do a much better job of maintaining their alignment with their IBs so they are more able to receive the understanding of their IBs, who remind them that
    1. Like us humans, they (the animals) consciously made their decision to come forth into this physical time-space reality as the animal that they are and they made their decision with eagerness and joyful anticipation of the creation that they are about.
    2. Like us humans, they (the animals) knew the details of Planet Earth at this time. From their broader perspective, they were (and are) excited about their role in the co-creation that is going on here.
    3. Because they knew that they were more likely to hold their alignment with their IB, animals are balancers of energy and contribute mightily to the stability of this world.
    4. They understand that in this arena, all beings eventually become food.
    5. Because they are more likely to maintain their alignment, they are more likely to retain that understanding so that, when they do become food for another being, they are less likely (than most humans, who tend to more readily focus away from their IBs) to think that this is something going wrong.
    6. Like us humans, the animals knew that they create their own reality.
    7. Because they are more likely to maintain their alignment, they are more likely to remember that croaking is a "Wheeee!" experience, something to be enjoyed, rather than feared.
    8. Because they are more likely to maintain their alignment with their IBs, the animals are more likely to recall that every particle of the universe is a mixture of wanted (by them) aspects and unwanted (by them) aspects.
    9. Because they are much more likely to maintain their alignment, they are more likely to focus upon the wanted aspects of their manifested what-is reality.
    10. Because animals are much more likely to maintain their alignment with their IBs, they are more likely to recall their IB's Knowing that they will come back to play this game again and again.
    11. Animals are much more likely to "be easy about this."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by WellBeing View Post
    So, are you saying that you create your own reality but animals don't?
    Well, your neighbor creates her own reality, but that doesn't mean you would want to hurt her just because you can...
    With animals it's the same, I am not wishing to hurt them. It's quite simple. I don't necessarily think it is a 'bad' thing that they get hurt (unlike actually, most vegans, I am really not pushing against anything), I just don't feel like hurting them myself. And it feels good to have come to more clarity on the matter. It feels better than just putting it under the rug and doing as if I didn't know that we hurt them.

    I have been vegetarian most of my adult life and that came without a sweat because I happen to find meat and fish unattractive most of the time, but it so happens that I think I'd have a hard time letting go of my morning hot chocolate, the pastries, the ice-creams, the hundreds of types of french cheese... It feels quite silly of me to say that but I am being honest. I would gladly let go of them for a period, but forever feels like a long time not to have dairy, the way I am wired. Still, I can't go on drinking my hot chocolate while believing it's not really too nice of me to drink it as it comes at such a high price for the animals. So far, on my own, I haven't been able to find a way out of the split. I will probably have to align to veganism, as I see it, but I wanna see first if the matter can be seen differently.

    ... and no, I am not taking action at all, I see there is the split and I am inquiring, I have been inquiring for a while already on my own. I'm not sure where that's inappropriate.
    Last edited by rose essence; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:53 PM.

  5. #5
    So because animals 'take it well' I can hurt them in good conscience? I am not trying to be flippant, I am asking in order to understand exactly what you're saying.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator WellBeing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    Well, your neighbor creates her own reality, but that doesn't mean you would want to hurt her just because you can…

    Let's consider these teachings as we discuss this. If you're in the position of hurting your neighbor, is that because the LoA made a horrible mistake? No, because the LoA never makes a mistake. EVERY thing that's in her experience is because she was a vibrational match to it. Similarly, EVERY thing that's in your experience is because it perfectly matches the vibration that you are offering. Otherwise, we can't call it “the Law of attraction.” Then, in the interests of accuracy, we would have to call it “the Tendency of attraction” or “the Possibility of attraction.” (And we wouldn't be able to effectively work with it.)

    Now, your neighbor might not be offering her vibration on purpose. It's easy to say that with an non-Aber, so let's up our game and assume she's an Aber. She might be ignoring her emotional guidance and pondering how other beings are hurt over here and over there and how many beings are willing to hurt others for this reason or that purpose and not just other humans but animals, too. The Law of Attraction has to respond to her focus. That's the Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    With animals it's the same, I am not wishing to hurt them.

    If you think about it, your example doesn't really serve you because (unless I'm missing something) you yourself are not hurting the animals you were asking about. And you might think that’s quibbling but just that shift (which is true) could be a significant shift in your vibration.

    One of the reasons why I initially replied to you how I did was because I was wondering how open you were/are to changing some of the thoughts that you think about this topic. When you said, ‘I know Abraham says this but….’, I was wondering if you had already made up your mind. I mean, if Abraham's perspective aren't enough to shake you from the way you're looking at this topic, what chance have we?

    If you are willing to be flexible in the way that you're thinking about this topic, you might be willing to acknowledge that you yourself are not the one raising these animals, which means that you might not have the full story on what's really going on. Or that because you're not involved in the process, the idea of “hurt” might be different from what you're currently believing. Or that, like every other subject in this world of Contrast, there's a wide variety of methods used in the raising and harvesting of animals for food, some of which might feel better to you to focus upon than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    It's quite simple. I don't necessarily think it is a 'bad' thing that they get hurt (unlike actually, most vegans, I am really not pushing against anything), I just don't feel like hurting them myself.

    If you're like most people, then you are not hurting them yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    And it feels good to have come to more clarity on the matter. It feels better than just putting it under the rug…

    You’re certainly free to focus however and wherever you want. Since we're discussing the teachings of Abraham, it’s important to remember that the Law of Attraction brings us more of what we focus upon, whether we want it or not.

    Now, really, there is NO sweeping anything under the rug in these teachings. That's not what Abraham teach and that's NOT what I'm suggesting.

    But when we know what we don't want, we have an opportunity to know more clearly what we do want. If that's where you are right now, then the next step in these teachings is to find a way to vibrationally line up with what you DO want. That's very different from sweeping anything under the rug.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    ...and doing as if I didn't know that we hurt them.

    Are they being hurt? Or are some being hurt and others not so much? After all, this is a world of Variety (which is Abraham's real meaning when they talk about Contrast). Are you willing to explore that Contrast?

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    So far, on my own, I haven't been able to find a way out of the split.

    And that makes perfect sense, after you've just focused on what you don't want and why you don't want it. This might be where Abraham say, “You can't get there from here,” meaning you can't to what you want from practicing in great detail what you don't want and why you don't want. Which is why I started my second reply to you in a more general place.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I will probably have to align to veganism, as I see it, but I wanna see first if the matter can be seen differently.

    Even from outside the boundaries of these teachings, there are lots of ways to see this matter differently than you've been presenting them here, especially in your own country.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    ...and no, I am not taking action at all,...

    You’re certainly leaning that way with your talk of becoming a vegan (even though you don’t want to) or giving up your hot chocolate (even though you don’t want to). And it’s none of our business what you DO.

    But your actions don’t resolve your vibrational misalignment. And that’s been the case for you, hasn’t it? Isn’t that the point of your story where you were a vegetarian but that didn’t resolve your emotional discomfort. So now you’ll come to this other policy (which is all right, if that's what you eventually choose to do) but that won’t resolve your emotional discomfort either. And this is where Abraham start to tease us, “It’s a wonder that any of you can find something to eat at all.”

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    So because animals 'take it well' I can hurt them in good conscience?

    Can you look beyond this “hurt”?

    Let’s approach this is a different way: Although this isn’t what happens at all, if someone were born with the intention to be the best fighter in the world and you were the current “best fighter” in the word but, having just had a crisis of conscience and deciding not to hurt, you ceased to fight anymore, then you would then be depriving that person of their opportunity to fulfill their life intention. Which do you think might hurt that someone more? Pummeling him in the arena? Or depriving him of his opportunity to fulfill his intention?

    We humans have this (bogus) idea of a “wasted death” or a “death in vain.” If a bunny comes into this world--understanding that death is inevitable; that death is not the big, hairy deal that we humans make of it; that we all become food for something at some point--willing, in part, to be food, yet you free him from his hutch (and, therefore, the slaughterhouse), are you hurting him more or less? Because, for all you know, he might run into the jaws of a passing wolf. Or out onto the road where he’s sideswiped by a car, left to linger to die (perhaps being clipped by several more cars) on the roadway? It all depends on how you look at it.

    As far as these teachings are concerned, Abraham would recommend that you look at it in a similar way that your IB is looking at it. IOW, look at it in whichever way feels better to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    I am not trying to be flippant, I am asking in order to understand exactly what you're saying.

    So, when that’s all you’ve gleaned out of all that I had posted in my second reply to you, doesn’t it get you wondering how willing you are to explore this topic? (And even that was a great distortion of what I had said.)

    If you’re going to reduce what I said to a single line, you would be more accurate to say, “That animals, by and large (because there’s even variety within “animals” or species of animals or tribes of animals or….), understand more of the bigger picture that you don’t yet seem to be considering” (and it’s all right, if you’re not yet considering it).
    Last edited by WellBeing; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:21 PM. Reason: Typos

  7. #7
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    As animals are mostly ITV and have a very different set of interests and goals than humans, Abe say we can not really lay our own ideas of a good life over them and "get it right".

    Per example, *I* would hate to have my naked feet all day long in icy water- but the ducks in the pond seem to like it.
    *I* would hate to live underneath the surface and dig myself all my life through wet soil and eat worms. But the moles seem to like it.

    My Granny used to say "The cat likes to eat mice. I donīt.", when different things get approached by different beings. We donīt really know what feels good or terrible to others- we can only follow OUR OWN guidance and not do things that feel cruel- or in any other way off, to US.

    Here is a quote-collection about animals that might clear things up at least some bit, I added those that might help you most, also.

    quotes about animals


    HS:
    “What is your take on vegetarians?"

    Abe:
    "Some of our favorite cows are that."






    What is a bad thing anyway?
    A bad thing is something that is different than what I want.
    Who gets to decide what the bad thing is?
    Jerry and Esther watched the mother bird lay her eggs in the nest,
    and then the neighbor's cat ate the baby bird.

    Esther said "bad cat!"
    And the cat said, "good bird!"


    - Abraham-Hicks





    Abe humorously soothe a HS who assigns her preferences to animals,
    and is suffering in doing it:


    "...My body is made up of trillions of cells.
    Each one is a consciousness.
    That seems as a pretty crummy life!
    All crowded in there, together, in my skin!
    Did the cells of my body really know, Abraham,
    that they are going to be so abused, in this way??

    -When that lady lost 150 pounds, how many of her cells
    did she sacrifice?
    I expect, quite a few of them croaked during that process!
    And they got pretty hungry before they croaked, Iīm thinking!"

    (...) Soon, we will have a conversation:
    "Abraham, there are this carrots.
    And do you know that they spend most of their life
    with their head buried deep in the dirt.
    And they are only allowed to see the sunshine
    just for a moment- before someone eats them!"


    from the clip
    Abraham Hicks - Mistreatment of food animals



  8. #8
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rose essence View Post
    So because animals 'take it well' I can hurt them in good conscience? I am not trying to be flippant, I am asking in order to understand exactly what you're saying.
    I think the whole question is about 2 different topics.

    Imo, the 1. topic is about deciding what the animals prefer.
    And you CAN NOT DO THAT. You simply donīt know.
    So, it must not be your pie! You can only decipher and decide what YOU prefer.

    The 2. topic is about deciding what YOU prefer.
    Of course we could walk around, beat people up, torture animals and trample the flowers. But why would we. So, is that REALLY the question? Do you PREFER that- simply because you "can" do it?

    It comes down to -as ALWAYS- deciding what you prefer by what feels good to you- where you WANT to give your focus and attention, and which side you want to be a part of:

    -The problem or the solution?
    -Pushing-against the unwanted, or routing for what what you do want?

    Stating "I donīt want animals to be tortured" is a very understandable thing, but in fact, due to LoA, it makes the unwanted bigger, as it focuses on torture and cruelty- and so, that becomes more.

    When you are clearly focused upon what you do want INSTEAD, you will find the essences of peace, joy, friendliness, love, respect, happiness. And when you are stable THERE, the products and the food that match that will be ATTRACTIVE to you, you will be drawn to them-
    instead of being REPELLED by what you donīt like.

  9. #9
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    I admit that the topic can mix us up so very much. I had a time where observing life had me in a corner in which NOTHING seemed to be joyfully possible anymore, because it all killed or -seemingly- tortured SOMEBODY. Walking over grass?? Yikes, *I* wouldnīt like it if someone would walk over me!!

    -You get the picture. Iīm not making fun of that AT ALL. Been there, done that.
    And having had THAT experience, I know: That CAN NOT BE the answer to a good, blessed, loving live.

  10. #10
    Wow, that’s a lot of material. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to write it.

    I must say that nothing so far has stuck as a BFT on animal farming, it seems a really non-debatable step 1 then.
    In particular, following more or less the sequence of arguments proposed:

    • That animals are good at aligning doesn’t seem to me to justify abuse to them
    • That I am not the one physically doing harm to them doesn’t make any difference to me, as long as I am a costumer of those who do it
    • If it so happen that I hurt my neighbor unwillingly, I certainly can put it to peace by thinking that she was a match to that, but if I realize she’s going to be hurt and go on doing what I am doing just because I can, well that’s another dynamic for me
    • That not all animals are being hurt to the same degree is probably true, but as all this pain is avoidable, the big and the small, it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference if it’s big or small
    • (that I am seeing it only in the negative of what I don’t want is an excellent point, WB, I’ll comment more on that later)
    • That I don’t really know what an animal likes and dislikes is untrue, it’s enough to observe what it would do by instinct, so a cat by instinct eats mice and a duck by instinct keep its feet in freezing water, but chickens don’t stay stuck upon each other without moving if they’re free to spread out, and they’re usually very active if allowed, and a mother bee may opt to fly to a new location at some point when things are done with the old location, if no-one goes and cut her wings.
    • Also the cells and the carrots of the quote are just doing what they are naturally built to do
    • What I prefer and what animals prefer are linked, as my preference is that animals are allowed to live according to their instincts and typical behavioral patterns of their species, and treated as fellow inhabitants of the planet instead of as source of alignment aka pleasure (it’s not survival, given that plants are enough for that, for the most part), given that it comes at a high cost for them
    • (You too POE suggest to look at the wanted, more on that later)
    • I am not super-sensitive to all the hurt that’s inflicted by me just because I live, to all the insects and bugs I kill just because I can’t see them. In this case, I can see the farmed animals and I can see the conditions by which they’re living and I can choose differently. This is a similar argument to the one of the neighboor.


    Ok, with that out of the way, let's focus on the point that scored home, which is what matters most. I was already aware of doing this all in the negative, but it’s only after your invitation that I made the actual attempt to see it all in terms of what I want.

    It just seems clear that what I want is to be compassionate to the animals, and the idea of choosing compassion over other factors feels good to me in general, but in some specifics I am not quite there. I am not aligned to let go of all animal products but if I abide to the good feeling of love and fellowship to the animals, and the appreciation of how my body makes it so easy for me to let go of some very crucial animal products for now, I can count on the fact that everything else will find its place without forcing it all into a strict rule that doesn’t (for now) feel good.

    Thank you, this was really useful to me. I am still open to what anyone may want to add on the subject...
    Last edited by rose essence; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:06 AM.

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