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Thread: Does reincarnation go on forever?

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel M. View Post
    Yes, that does feel better.



    Yes, there are beings that choose not to incarnate anymore.

    I am always on the leading edge, but for myself, my evolution. I have leading edge experiences, but if someone were to say that those experiences were not leading edge, that he had already experienced them....that it was old stuff, I would not care. My leading edge discovery would be so exciting and exhilarating to me
    .


    At the park, I sometimes see a group of women gather to learn and practice new dance routines, and they are having so much fun fumbling and then trying again to learn the steps. There's something so refreshing about being a beginner at something. The women who know the routine better are not more enchanting than these giggling fumbling women.

    Be leading edge!

    Enjoy the journey.
    How can you be so sure that these beings that have "chosen not to incarnate anymore" will never incarnate again? Why do you think a being would choose not to incarnate anymore? There are countless planets, galaxies, solar systems, etc. to explore. Why would a being not be excited to continue to explore?

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    you said that something can be "more leading edge" in your previous post.
    Think it through logically: Non-physical kept expanding to the point that the physical became the next logical step. If the physical is the result of all the expansion in the non-physical, logically there will be a point that there's been so much expansion from the physical that there's something new even beyond the physical.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    So that would mean that there are degrees to the leading edge.
    The leading edge isn't static. Expansion keeps happening, which means the leading edge gets further and further out. What was once the leading edge isn't the leading edge anymore. Right now, that's still the physical. Given that we're talking about eternity, that won't always be the case, will it?
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    And you say that there has to be something more expanded than the physical... but how can the physical get MORE physical, more dense, its only up from here, to non physical.
    There's the problem with you assigning words because you're saying that things that I have not. I've said that at some point it makes sense that there will be something even more than the physical. The concept of "density" is something you've injected that implies a sort of hierarchy that I don't agree with. The physical is a place of exaggerated contrast in comparison to the non-physical. Again, logically, it's conceivable that whatever comes after that will be a place of exaggerated contrast compared to the physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    So you know that there is a leading edge but you don't know what the leading edge is or will be, so in short, you don't know if beings will incarnate forever. Sorry to be assigning words to you again but you leave me no choice lol.
    You can keep trying to box me into your multiple choice answers and I'll continue to decline to be so constrained. You're wanting to talk about FOREVER. Yes, I know there's going to be a leading edge and I know it's going to keep expanding further and further. There's going to be more and more and more, and logically speaking it's inevitable that at some point there will be things beyond the physical, and then things beyond whatever comes next to that, and then things beyond whatever comes next to that, because there's simply no end. That's why I think it's silly to talk about how anyone or anything would ever make a single decision about "forever" or "never again" because there's always more and more and more and more and things are always going to keep changing and expanding and none of that really fits in A, B, C, or D.

    What's more interesting, in my opinion, is how you talk about how you're interested in others' opinions on this topic, and when they give them, you argue with them. Abraham tells the story of how Esther used to ask Jerry's opinion about different topics and he would respond, "I don't think you want my opinion, I think you want me to agree with you." I believe that's what is going on here. I've said it several times before -- getting others to agree with you, even getting Abraham to give you the words you're seeking, isn't going to make up for your lack of alignment. It's not going to soothe the vibration of doubt you've got going on. The converse is true -- when you're in alignment, there just isn't anything or anyone that can buck your current and keep you from what you want.

    But I'll take the next step and be the thorn in your side and state unequivocally that I envision a point where the leading edge has moved far beyond physical incarnation and it's become nice and safe and sort of like the equivalent to what non-physical is to us, and anyone who's interested in the leading edge won't really be interested in physical incarnation anymore because there's just so much more out there and won't want to incarnate again. Physical incarnation will be like a chewed out piece of gum without flavor and there will be just so much juicier stuff out there that you just won't want to come back.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Think it through logically: Non-physical kept expanding to the point that the physical became the next logical step. If the physical is the result of all the expansion in the non-physical, logically there will be a point that there's been so much expansion from the physical that there's something new even beyond the physical.

    The leading edge isn't static. Expansion keeps happening, which means the leading edge gets further and further out. What was once the leading edge isn't the leading edge anymore. Right now, that's still the physical. Given that we're talking about eternity, that won't always be the case, will it?

    There's the problem with you assigning words because you're saying that things that I have not. I've said that at some point it makes sense that there will be something even more than the physical. The concept of "density" is something you've injected that implies a sort of hierarchy that I don't agree with. The physical is a place of exaggerated contrast in comparison to the non-physical. Again, logically, it's conceivable that whatever comes after that will be a place of exaggerated contrast compared to the physical.


    You can keep trying to box me into your multiple choice answers and I'll continue to decline to be so constrained. You're wanting to talk about FOREVER. Yes, I know there's going to be a leading edge and I know it's going to keep expanding further and further. There's going to be more and more and more, and logically speaking it's inevitable that at some point there will be things beyond the physical, and then things beyond whatever comes next to that, and then things beyond whatever comes next to that, because there's simply no end. That's why I think it's silly to talk about how anyone or anything would ever make a single decision about "forever" or "never again" because there's always more and more and more and more and things are always going to keep changing and expanding and none of that really fits in A, B, C, or D.

    What's more interesting, in my opinion, is how you talk about how you're interested in others' opinions on this topic, and when they give them, you argue with them. Abraham tells the story of how Esther used to ask Jerry's opinion about different topics and he would respond, "I don't think you want my opinion, I think you want me to agree with you." I believe that's what is going on here. I've said it several times before -- getting others to agree with you, even getting Abraham to give you the words you're seeking, isn't going to make up for your lack of alignment. It's not going to soothe the vibration of doubt you've got going on. The converse is true -- when you're in alignment, there just isn't anything or anyone that can buck your current and keep you from what you want.

    But I'll take the next step and be the thorn in your side and state unequivocally that I envision a point where the leading edge has moved far beyond physical incarnation and it's become nice and safe and sort of like the equivalent to what non-physical is to us, and anyone who's interested in the leading edge won't really be interested in physical incarnation anymore because there's just so much more out there and won't want to incarnate again. Physical incarnation will be like a chewed out piece of gum without flavor and there will be just so much juicier stuff out there that you just won't want to come back.
    You keep saying that eventually there will be something beyond the physical... well there already is something beyond the physical lol. Non physical!

    I'm not arguing, I have just been pointing out that you never answered the question so I keep having to ask, and round and round we go. So here you finally do answer it by stating that you think the physical will get outdated, a "chewed out piece of gum". So you do think that incarnation will come to an end at some point. I don't know why it took you so long to answer the question.

    And yes, the concept of density is core to my question since we are talking about a back and forth between the physical and NP which density is a key differentiating factor. The physical is as dense as it gets, you cant get more dense than physical reality. Physical reality can still evolve and expand while still being physical. There could be a point where the physical vibrates higher but then it would just be non physical again. Back where we started. And if the physical evolved to where it is "nice and safe", that would be fine, but it doesn't mean that all of the sudden physical reality will evaporate into non physical. And I'm not so sure "nice and safe" is even the goal. We were nice and safe in NP, if we wanted to stay nice and safe we would have just stayed there, we never would have come here. We wanted "danger", we wanted to feel things other than nice and safe. Nice and safe would get old after a while don't you think?

  4. #94
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    There are many within the One. As above so below. We are not merged as some homogenous blob in the physical and we wont be in NP either.
    You think so?
    So, why do you keep asking your questions?

    To me it FEELS as if you would be out for discussion- fights (but of course I can't really know what is going on within you).

    We all have our opinions, and maybe they ALL are true. What are you fighting for? (Honest question!)

  5. #95
    Beloved Woman paradise-on-earth's Avatar
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    Honestly, it doesn't feel very inspiring to me any more to go into deep discussions with you about "what is, and what isn't". But here is a bit that I'd like to comment on:

    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    We were nice and safe in NP, if we wanted to stay nice and safe we would have just stayed there, we never would have come here. We wanted "danger", we wanted to feel things other than nice and safe. Nice and safe would get old after a while don't you think?
    Have you ever thought about exploring something in it's DEPTH? About becoming a master in it, a genius, who explores world after world WITHIN a concept? Because it feels to me as if you would have a quite shallow life-experience, where you judge topics after having experienced them only on the surface.

    "Nice and safe" can be WORLDS of satisfaction, and feel like awe and fascination and goodness and loving bliss, as soon you dive deep and open and purely into them. They reveal facets that you have no idea of, from the surface.

    Just a SMALL example.
    And in that same way, I think you have no idea yet about merging and being "one" while still conscious- as loving, adoring streams of energy, who always meander within themselves and with others, sometimes incredibly focused; pure love and pure intelligence always, who merge and -seemingly- divide and in that, create endless new realities- instead of being "homogenous blobs".

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradise-on-earth View Post
    You think so?
    So, why do you keep asking your questions?

    To me it FEELS as if you would be out for discussion- fights (but of course I can't really know what is going on within you).

    We all have our opinions, and maybe they ALL are true. What are you fighting for? (Honest question!)
    How am I fighting? Just offering thoughts to responses and asking questions, having discussions about the teachings of Abe. Isn't that what this forum is for? Just because people disagree on something does not mean there is a fight lol.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradise-on-earth View Post
    Honestly, it doesn't feel very inspiring to me any more to go into deep discussions with you about "what is, and what isn't". But here is a bit that I'd like to comment on:





    Have you ever thought about exploring something in it's DEPTH? About becoming a master in it, a genius, who explores world after world WITHIN a concept? Because it feels to me as if you would have a quite shallow life-experience, where you judge topics after having experienced them only on the surface.

    "Nice and safe" can be WORLDS of satisfaction, and feel like awe and fascination and goodness and loving bliss, as soon you dive deep and open and purely into them. They reveal facets that you have no idea of, from the surface.

    Just a SMALL example.
    And in that same way, I think you have no idea yet about merging and being "one" while still conscious- as loving, adoring streams of energy, who always meander within themselves and with others, sometimes incredibly focused; pure love and pure intelligence always, who merge and -seemingly- divide and in that, create endless new realities- instead of being "homogenous blobs".
    Thats fine if people want to stay nice and safe, I'm not judging. There isn't much contrast in nice and safe tho, therefore there isn't as much potential for expansion. Abe always says that the physical is a place of accelerated expansion BECAUSE of the contrast.

    You can experience oneness while still being an individual. There can be both. Abe says that we don't merge or disappear into some etheric mist when we die. We are still very much ourselves. And I don't know why you would assume that I have no idea about an experience. I definitely have never merged into a homogeneous blob, otherwise I wouldn't be typing right now lol

  8. #98
    Super Kitty Marc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    You keep saying that eventually there will be something beyond the physical... well there already is something beyond the physical lol. Non physical!
    That's not what I mean. I don't agree that non-physical is "beyond" the physical in the way you mean. According to Abraham, the non-physical came first, the physical is the byproduct of the expansion of the non-physical. That's why they talk about the physical being an EXTENSION of the non-physical, and we physical beings as being EXTENSIONS of non-physical energy. Given that progression, it's logically possible (and IMO, inevitable) to have an EXTENSION of the physical, and then an EXTENSION of the extension, and so on, as we're talking about FOREVER here.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    I'm not arguing,
    You've argued with everyone who has given an opinion that you've disagreed with -- look back at your responses to Jewel, paulmanifestor, and p-o-e. You're always pushing back. For example, you respond to Jewel: "How can you be so sure that these beings that have 'chosen not to incarnate anymore' will never incarnate again? Why do you think a being would choose not to incarnate anymore? There are countless planets, galaxies, solar systems, etc. to explore. Why would a being not be excited to continue to explore?" If you're just interested in her opinion, she's given it. You've responded similarly to everyone else. You're arguing, which makes it about you really wanting people's agreement, not their opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    I have just been pointing out that you never answered the question so I keep having to ask, and round and round we go. So here you finally do answer it by stating that you think the physical will get outdated, a "chewed out piece of gum". So you do think that incarnation will come to an end at some point. I don't know why it took you so long to answer the question.
    We keep going around and around because I won't answer in the way you want me to answer. I'll say it yet again, I disagree with the premise of your question because it makes absolutely no sense to talk about "never." I made my last answer about physical reality being a "chewed out piece of gum" to specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    And yes, the concept of density is core to my question since we are talking about a back and forth between the physical and NP which density is a key differentiating factor.
    Again, this concept of density is yours, not mine, not necessarily Abraham's. Abraham has talked about the physical being a place of exaggerated contrast. Once again, logically, I can at least conceptualize an "extension" of the physical that is a reality of even MORE contrast, analogous to the relationship between the non-physical and physical.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    The physical is as dense as it gets, you cant get more dense than physical reality.
    Until you do. Previously you couldn't get denser than non-physical because that's all there was... and then came the physical. Logically speaking, as it's happened once,
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    Physical reality can still evolve and expand while still being physical.
    Of course, but as we're talking about ETERNITY and NEVER ENDING EXPANSION, and as non-physical has given birth to the physical, there's no logical reason that somehow that process simply stops at the physical. To the contrary, it would be inevitable that things just keep going further and there's yet another new aspect of reality... and eventually another, and another.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    There could be a point where the physical vibrates higher but then it would just be non physical again. Back where we started.
    Abraham often says that our IBs never look back. They've actually gone further and said that Source CAN'T look back. To do so would cause the sort of ended-ness (ie DEATH) that does not exist. It's always looking forward. You can't go back to where you started when you're always looking to go beyond. What you're describing doesn't make sense in that context.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    And if the physical evolved to where it is "nice and safe", that would be fine, but it doesn't mean that all of the sudden physical reality will evaporate into non physical.
    I never suggested that physical reality would evaporate into non-physical. It simply wouldn't be the leading edge anymore. Rather, at some point we'll have explored the physical to such an extent that we want contrast that's even bigger to inspire us to yet more.
    Quote Originally Posted by theportalishere View Post
    And I'm not so sure "nice and safe" is even the goal. We were nice and safe in NP, if we wanted to stay nice and safe we would have just stayed there, we never would have come here. We wanted "danger", we wanted to feel things other than nice and safe. Nice and safe would get old after a while don't you think?
    I never said that nice and safe was the goal. I'm making the opposite point. If we come into this physical reality because we wanted more contrast than is present in non-physical, it's conceivable that we'll reach a point where we want to explore even more contrast than physical reality can provide. That new reality would then be the "leading edge." Eventually, we'll want to explore even more contrast than that extension can provide. And so on.

    That's why I think the basis of your question is flawed -- it conflates physical reality with the leading edge when those won't always be synonymous, just like the dinosaurs weren't the leading edge. And because your questions is flawed, I don't think it makes any sense to agree that any being would ALWAYS want to physically incarnate when it's inevitable that there will be a point where physical reality isn't the leading edge anymore. Conversely, I don't think it makes any sense that a being would ever decide that it would NEVER incarnate again even if it wasn't the leading edge anymore. Maybe that being wants to pop in from time to time because it likes chocolate. Or sex. Or chocolate being used during sex. Who's to say what the possibilities are in an INFINITE, EVER-EXPANDING existence? your multiple choice answers really don't make sense because the basis of your question doesn't make sense.

    That's why I answered in the way I did. There's always going to be MORE. We're always going to be drawn to that new, expanded place. It doesn't make sense to be more specific than that when you're talking about FOREVER, because no specifics are ever going to be able to keep up with infinite expansion.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    That's not what I mean. I don't agree that non-physical is "beyond" the physical in the way you mean. According to Abraham, the non-physical came first, the physical is the byproduct of the expansion of the non-physical. That's why they talk about the physical being an EXTENSION of the non-physical, and we physical beings as being EXTENSIONS of non-physical energy. Given that progression, it's logically possible (and IMO, inevitable) to have an EXTENSION of the physical, and then an EXTENSION of the extension, and so on, as we're talking about FOREVER here.

    You've argued with everyone who has given an opinion that you've disagreed with -- look back at your responses to Jewel, paulmanifestor, and p-o-e. You're always pushing back. For example, you respond to Jewel: "How can you be so sure that these beings that have 'chosen not to incarnate anymore' will never incarnate again? Why do you think a being would choose not to incarnate anymore? There are countless planets, galaxies, solar systems, etc. to explore. Why would a being not be excited to continue to explore?" If you're just interested in her opinion, she's given it. You've responded similarly to everyone else. You're arguing, which makes it about you really wanting people's agreement, not their opinion.

    We keep going around and around because I won't answer in the way you want me to answer. I'll say it yet again, I disagree with the premise of your question because it makes absolutely no sense to talk about "never." I made my last answer about physical reality being a "chewed out piece of gum" to specifically


    Again, this concept of density is yours, not mine, not necessarily Abraham's. Abraham has talked about the physical being a place of exaggerated contrast. Once again, logically, I can at least conceptualize an "extension" of the physical that is a reality of even MORE contrast, analogous to the relationship between the non-physical and physical.

    Until you do. Previously you couldn't get denser than non-physical because that's all there was... and then came the physical. Logically speaking, as it's happened once,

    Of course, but as we're talking about ETERNITY and NEVER ENDING EXPANSION, and as non-physical has given birth to the physical, there's no logical reason that somehow that process simply stops at the physical. To the contrary, it would be inevitable that things just keep going further and there's yet another new aspect of reality... and eventually another, and another.

    Abraham often says that our IBs never look back. They've actually gone further and said that Source CAN'T look back. To do so would cause the sort of ended-ness (ie DEATH) that does not exist. It's always looking forward. You can't go back to where you started when you're always looking to go beyond. What you're describing doesn't make sense in that context.

    I never suggested that physical reality would evaporate into non-physical. It simply wouldn't be the leading edge anymore. Rather, at some point we'll have explored the physical to such an extent that we want contrast that's even bigger to inspire us to yet more.

    I never said that nice and safe was the goal. I'm making the opposite point. If we come into this physical reality because we wanted more contrast than is present in non-physical, it's conceivable that we'll reach a point where we want to explore even more contrast than physical reality can provide. That new reality would then be the "leading edge." Eventually, we'll want to explore even more contrast than that extension can provide. And so on.

    That's why I think the basis of your question is flawed -- it conflates physical reality with the leading edge when those won't always be synonymous, just like the dinosaurs weren't the leading edge. And because your questions is flawed, I don't think it makes any sense to agree that any being would ALWAYS want to physically incarnate when it's inevitable that there will be a point where physical reality isn't the leading edge anymore. Conversely, I don't think it makes any sense that a being would ever decide that it would NEVER incarnate again even if it wasn't the leading edge anymore. Maybe that being wants to pop in from time to time because it likes chocolate. Or sex. Or chocolate being used during sex. Who's to say what the possibilities are in an INFINITE, EVER-EXPANDING existence? your multiple choice answers really don't make sense because the basis of your question doesn't make sense.

    That's why I answered in the way I did. There's always going to be MORE. We're always going to be drawn to that new, expanded place. It doesn't make sense to be more specific than that when you're talking about FOREVER, because no specifics are ever going to be able to keep up with infinite expansion.
    Asking questions about a response is just seeking to further the discussion and to get more clarity around a given answer. I don't see how that is arguing. If you define asking questions as arguing then ya I guess I'm arguing lol.


    Its been quite a long time and physical is still physical lol. I'm not sure what the physical would extend to. Its already physical lol. Some people interested in these topics talk about "ascension" which is the opposite of what you seem to be referring to. When you say the physical will extend/expand into something else, what do you mean by that? The physical will turn into some other form of reality that is even more physical? Less physical? Becoming more physical makes no sense. If something is physical its physical. A rock is rock solid. You want a rock to become more solid lol.


    According to Abe NP continues to have interest in the physical because of the contrast, and yes, higher density (than NP) is the clay that allows this contrast to occur. So I am confused as to why you say that it is inevitable that the physical turn into some other medium. It seems quite possible to me that the physical world(s) is just as eternal as the world of NP. Otherwise, why would NP have so much interest in the physical. If NP was the leading edge they would be busy riding that wave and would not even care about the physical world. Abe is the one that continually references the physical world as the leading edge, and this is the Abe forum so I don't know why that idea is stirring so many people up.


    If a being wants to "pop in from time to time" then that means incarnation continues. There could be huge gaps between incarnations... so as long as the physical reality exists then I would think that it is most likely that there will be times when a being would like to dip back into the physical, given an eternal time span.


    If the physical goes away and turns into something else entirely as you are suggesting, then obviously incarnation would not even be an option, since it would be going backwards as you say, so then yes incarnation would end in that scenario. So it continues or it doesn't, I don't believe you will be able to offer another option if you really try. And it sounds like if you are being truthful, your answer is "I don't know". You have already kind of said that. You don't know what the leading edge will be so how could you know if there will be any physical reality left to incarnate in. Plus you seem to think physical reality will be obsolete anyways so if you were to lean in a direction it seems you lean in the way of incarnation ending at some point.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    There's no logical reason that somehow that process simply stops at the physical.
    It's been stopped at the physical for billions of years lol. Things have not become more physical. We are talking about a scale of density from NP to physical. Physical is at the end of the scale, where is it going to go? Can you even come up with an idea in your imagination? That's why I said the only way to go from here is up. Up in vibration which means less dense . And once you NP the only way to go is back down in density to the physical. That's why an eternal back and forth would make sense.

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